Your Religion Isn’t An Excuse For Hate


Here’s another one from Dances In Rain: http://wildaboutegypt.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/god-loves-gays/. This one is on homosexuality.

“…..Just not their behaviour.”
What behaviour? You mean who they fall in love with? How dare they love someone!
“Same with murders, paedophiles, thieves and adulterers. He loves everyone.”
Do you really want to say being homosexual is the equivalent of being a murderer? Seriously? Murderers, thieves, paedophiles, and adulterers hurt other people. Who, might I ask, do homosexuals hurt? Who does their love hurt? What crime (legally speaking, I don’t care about what your religion says. We’ll get to that later) are they commuting?
“He hates the sin.”
Why?
“I do NOT hate homosexuals. I hate the sin.”
Why? Without saying “the Bible says so,” can you give me a coherent argument as to why homosexuality is wrong? Can you explain to me why your God would even care about the sexuality of any given human?
“First of all, the Old Testament lists homosexual behaviour as one of the main reasons why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Just because it was the Old Testament doesn’t mean the sin isn’t still real.”
Actually, it doesn’t. The sins of the people are never explained. We don’t know what they did to deserve being destroyed. Homosexuality doesn’t come up until the angles are threatened with rape. It’s not the act of homosexuality, or even the threat of rape, that is the problem here. This story is meant to show that the people of Sodom were so depraved that they wouldn’t even treat guests with the proper respect they were due. At the time, it was expected that you would invite a stranger in your city/town to stay with you, and you would treat them as family. But the people of Sodom weren’t willing to extend that basic hospitality. In fact, they wanted to abuse the visitors.
“Also in the Old Testament, God defines homosexuality as sexually immoral behaviour, which comes up multiple times in the New Testament.”
Not really. Leviticus mentions it, but that’s about it. And that’s generally attributed to the author’s personal biases. Though it could easily be taken as not anti-homosexual: don’t lie with a man like you’d lie with a woman? Why would a gay man want to anyway? They’re having sex with a man, not a woman!
Did you know that both the relationship between David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi can be interpreted as homosexual in nature? Given how the words translate from Ancient Hebrew into English, they aren’t obviously platonic relationships.
“Now as far as New Testament goes;
‘Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.’
That’s 1 Corinthians 6:9-10”
In which version? Remember: the Bible was a book that has been translated many times, into and out of various languages. Very few versions actually say “homosexuality” in this passage. Most say something along the line of “men who abuse themselves of other men.” That’s not nearly so clear.
“In Matthew 15, Jesus talks about clean and unclean behaviour. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 say, ‘For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean’.’”
This says nothing about homosexuality. At all. Sexual immorality could have been meaning rape, or bestiality. You’re reading it how you want to read it.
“Romans 1:27 says, ‘In the same way the men also abandoned their natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.’”
Again, homosexuality isn’t actually mentioned here. Lust is not the same as love, or a relationship. It’s not actually unheard of, historically, for straight men to sleep together when they are away from women for a long period of time. That doesn’t make them gay, it just meant that they found a way to fulfill a need.
“Notice how it says ‘natural relations with women’ which brings me to my next point.
Homosexuals were not born that way.”
Just because the Bible says something is natural, doesn’t mean it’s right. Yes, some men are naturally attracted to women, and some women are naturally attracted to men, but that doesn’t mean that men cannot be naturally attracted to other men, or both men and women, or to neither, etc. And the same can be true of women. Sexuality is a complex thing.
Where is your evidence (again, I don’t care about what the Bible says. I want actual evidence) that homosexuality is not natural? Because, according to medical professionals, it is perfectly normal, and most definitely not a choice.
“I know, it’s a nice excuse, but it doesn’t work like that. True, we are all born with a certain sin nature that we are prone to, but you can choose whether or not to act on it. Homosexuality is a learned sin like any other.”
Pray tell me, at what point did you decide to be straight?
“In the same way you can argue that murderers, paedophiles, and rapists were ‘born that way’ so they can’t help but do those things, right?”
Actually, as far as we know, they are born that way. At least, murders who are sociopaths/psychopaths are born that way, as are paedophiles. Rapists are likely taught that they have a right to a woman’s (or other persons) body, because most rapists don’t see themselves as rapists, though they will admit to forcing a woman (or other person) into sex if you don’t call it rape. That’s largely why we lock people up: to keep them away from other people so they don’t hurt them.
“Wrong. You have free will. Use it to follow something good.”
What do you classify as ‘good’? The Bible also says nothing about freewill. This is an idea posited by those outside of the Bible. There’s no reason to actually believe we have freewill. But if we do, and if God cares so much about our having freewill, why is he so willing to take it away? He took away Pharaohs freewill to prevent him from freeing the Israelites. He took away Saul’s freewill so he’d continue to chase David. Clearly God doesn’t value human freewill, he only values our obedience.
“This is also wrong, as homosexual behaviour destroys the sanctity of marriage. It is constantly working against traditional and Christian family values, making sinful behaviour an acceptable alternative.”
How? Where is your evidence? What has homosexuality done to traditional marriage? Do you even know what traditional marriage is? Traditionally, marriage meant shaking up. In some cultures, if you moved in together, you were married. In others, if the man could get the woman into his house before anyone stopped him, she was his wife. Monogamy wasn’t really a thing in early marriages either. In fact, “traditional marriage” in the Bible included men having many wives. And men could sleep with other women so long as they weren’t other men’s wives. What we consider “traditional marriage” wasn’t a thing until the Victorian Era.
“Then think of the children. Recent studies show that a child thrives best in a household with both a mother and father. Not two moms. Not two dads. They need both male and female role models to fill those important places in their lives.
Here’s a good study on it: http://www.citizenlink.com/2010/06/17/30-years-of-research-that-tells-us-a-child-deserves-a-mother-and-a-father/”
Actually, studies show that kids do best with two parents. Not specifically a mother and father. And some studies have shown that the fact that homosexual couples can’t accidentally have kids majorly improves their living conditions. Here are some studies:
http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/gay-parents-as-good-as-straight-ones/
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx
http://www.regentuniversityonline.com/acad/schlaw/student_life/studentorgs/lawreview/docs/issues/v14n2/Vol.%2014,%20No.%202,%205%20Kilgus.pdf
http://www.livescience.com/17913-advantages-gay-parents.html
“I realize a lot of people will disagree with me, and I would just please ask for you to be polite in the comments. I’m not being judgemental or hateful, and I sincerely hope I did not come across that way in my writing.”
Saying that you aren’t being hateful or judgemental doesn’t mean you aren’t being hateful and judgemental. You’re telling people that they are bad because of who they are. And you’re ignoring actual research to do so. How is that not hateful? Why do you think “but I love you anyway” makes it okay? And why do you feel entitled to ignore facts to the detriment of others?

http://www.exposingtruth.com/homosexuality-is-natural/
http://www.livescience.com/44464-bonobo-homosexuality-natural.html

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40018070?uid=3739392&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21104759122871

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23 responses to “Your Religion Isn’t An Excuse For Hate

  • Tim

    In the beginning of your post you asked why God would care about the sexuality of anyone. That’s easy. One of the only commands God gave to mankind was to be fruitful and multiply. Homosexuality does not allow reproduction, therefore that sexuality would not be approved.

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    • Ros

      “Homosexuality does not allow reproduction, therefore that sexuality would not be approved.” Surely, the problem with that argument is that no sexual acts that don’t allow reproduction can be approved. So there can be no sexual contact during pregnancy, after menopause or when one partner is either infertile or severely disabled. Therefore, marriages between such people cannot be approved either. By your definition, they are sinful. Clearly, that’s ridiculous.

      The belief that human sexuality is all about producing children (particularly sons) has also been hugely damaging to both single people and married women who failed to come up with the goods. Yes, God created human sexuality. Yes, God created men and women from the same flesh (i.e. different from the animals). Yes, God created men and women to complement one another. But nowhere in the Bible is it explicitly stated that each and every man must marry a woman and have children or that each and every woman must marry a man and have children. It is perfectly ‘natural’ and ordinary and moral not to do one or both. Equally, it is perfectly ‘natural’ and ordinary and moral to be born with a disability and hence differ from the ‘created order’. Indeed, Jesus makes it very clear that being disabled has nothing to do with personal sin. So, in the same way, I would see it as perfectly ‘natural’ and ordinary and moral to be gay and hence differ from the ‘created order’. And there is nothing in the Bible that makes me think otherwise. The prohibitions against (male) homosexual acts I would see as being largely directed at promiscuous men – probably married – who were quite happy to screw anyone who came their way, regardless of the consequences.

      Liked by 1 person

  • siriusbizinus

    I needed to wait to comment on this post, because there was a lot that I needed to cool off about. “Hate the sin, not the sinner” is intentionally geared to sound nice while allowing Christians to despise people for who they are. It is intended to separate homosexuality or other intrinsic qualities from a person. Indeed, it relies on it.

    The sheer gall of it all is that some Christian couples will readily admit that heterosexual is a part of their identities. It doesn’t change. And I think it’s time that if “hating the sin” equates to fighting against rights for people, then they should start fighting to deny rights to everyone who sins.

    That is unsustainable though. If they kicked everyone out who had extramarital sex, there would be empty churches.

    Hate the sin but love the sinner? Give me a break.

    Liked by 1 person

  • eb571573

    I tackled this subject briefly in my post “Can the Christian Church and the LGBT Community become unified.” This post was mostly a rebuttal toward Matthew Vines, a leader in a LGBT movement that claims that homosexuals can be members of the Christian church. However, I do take on some issues regarding the Old Testament and the New Testament and what they have to say about the matter of homosexuality. It’s concerning to me that people think that Christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong are all of a sudden ignorant, simplistic, and unintelligent beings. I quote, “Where is the evidence (again, I don’t care about what the Bible says. I want actual evidence) that homosexuality is not natural?” That’s the problem isn’t it? The Bible IS the authority for those that believe in Christ. The fact that we read and believe that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexuality (my blog touches on those beliefs) is evidence plenty for those under the authority of God and His word. I would like to address your argument regarding being “born that way.” You begin by saying that people with homosexual tendencies are indeed born that way and that it has nothing to do with the thoughts of Christians who say that we are all born with different types of sin. Directly after this, you go into the case of murderers, paedophiles, and rapists and say that these people are indeed born this way and/or taught these behaviors. The fact is this: Christians believe that people are born this way as well, yet we look at these things as sin. The Bible says (although you have made it quite clear, in your opinion, that the Bible is not factual) that we are inherently sinful and will always be moved and motivated by the desires of the flesh due to our fallen, sinful nature. These categories of behavior and lifestyle are what we consider sin and byproducts of our sinful nature. Do I believe that murder and homosexuality are two different things? Yes. Do I see them both as sin and a choice? Yes. You said it yourself, “they are born that way.” I wholeheartedly agree with you. I agree and say that every man has different pychological/sociological problems from birth. I have a desire to view pornography nearly every day due to my decision to act on my curiosity many years ago. Not everybody has the same desires that I have. Through prayer and study, I decided to stop viewing pornography. I am a married man and a Christian. I stopped, not only to strengthen and preserve my marriage, but mostly to strengthen my relationship with God and turn from what I have been taught and believe to be sin.

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    • hessianwithteeth

      I want evidence why homosexuality is wrong, not evidence of what the Bible says. Those are two very different things. The Bible doesn’t say much about homosexuality, and what it does say has been translated in various translations of the Bible. There are also translations within the Bible that suggest god is fine with Homosexuality. For example, in Matthew Jesus healed a mans slave. However, in the original Greek, they used a word that means both slave and lover. This is odd because there was a more common word for slave that the Bible generally uses. The fact that they use the word that can also translate as lover suggests that the man was more than a slave, he was also his master’s lover.
      If the Bible is your authority, then how can you believe homosexuality is wrong when the Bible isn’t even obviously against homosexuality?
      So where is your actual evidence that homosexuality is wrong? It can’t just be the Bible because otherwise you’d be conflicted. How do you know that God is against homosexuality? Why would he even care?

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      • eb571573

        I believe that the word you are talking about is “pais.” This word has a range of meanings, which can include an adolescent same sex partner. However, if you look alittle further, the New Testament uses the term “pais” multiple times and always means the word servant within the context of the writing. A reader of this cannot all of a sudden jump to the conclusion that this word means something homosexual when a majority of the time, this word is used in the New Testament to mean servant, or child. The gospel of Luke changes the word to slave instead of servant, probably to avoid confusion. So, where is my actual evidence? I will be honest and say that on a moral scale, I find nothing wrong with homosexuality. I find that homosexuality does not make sense, however, and therefore view it as a choice with regarding things being natural or not. Take a look at our basic anatomy! It does not take a professor of Biology or an expert in anatomy to see that males and females being united in sexual intercourse is indeed the natural order for sexuality. I know that is not much evidence, but if I can’t use the Bible, then I have been rejected my right to use my most valued and reliable resource. Also, the Bible does actually talk of homosexuality being wrong. I am not going to go into that here, for the answer will be very long. You can visit my blog though and look up the title that I listed in my last comment to see my defense of what the Bible says regarding homosexuality. Why does God view it as wrong and why does he care? I will briefly say this about what the Bible says on the matter since I can’t use the Bible for a resource: Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” God obviously does care about mankind because He created the male first, in His image, and later created the woman because He sought to keep man satisfied and from being alone. He also did this for the sake of procreation. If God did not care about us, then He would have simply made us into animals that bred within breeding cages and received no enjoyment from life and love. He designed us and brought man and woman together. Now, I could go on about how God hates sexual immorality and how the sexual union between a man and a woman within marriage, under God, is to represent the union and love between Christ and His bride (which is the church, and that is indeed something that He cares about greatly). However, you said I can’t use the Bible and that would take up an entire blog post anyhow. Why does God care? Because, like I said, God hates sexual immorality, and homosexuality is listed as immorality. It is against the design of God. Here is the best way I can put that though: God views homosexuality as wrong, and He cares about it because…God knows what is best for us. He designed us and our sexuality; His thoughts are greater than ours. Studies have shown that within homosexual marriages, or unions, that promiscuity outside of that marriage is more common than within heterosexual marriages and therefore shows heterosexual marriages to be more sound and long lasting. Also, the medical risks that are associated with homosexual relationships regarding sexually transmitted diseases are insane. One study even showed that homosexual relationships decreased the life expectancy of participating sexual partners ( I don’t know how reliable that study is). Heterosexual relationships are by no means perfect. However, I see the lack of commitment within heterosexual relationship due to the lack of making God the center of the marriage. And, I believe that God sees that there are serious consequences medically and physically when participating in homosexuality. I believe that God knows best. Our sexuality is a gift from God. With that being said, I believe that God designed sexuality to be used in specific ways and is displeased when we misuse it.

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        • hessianwithteeth

          Well I’m not going to reply point by point, but pick out a few things.

          I also won’t go into the Herbew/Greek as that’s Hessian’s territory and not mine.

          One there is no “natural order” of sexuality favorring heterosexuality, dozens of animals are well documented as being willing to engage in homosexual acts.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

          Not is not to mention that the male/female divide is not
          so clear cut in anyway what so ever. (I’ve talked about this a bunch else where and don’t feel like driving into it here)

          “Studies have shown that within homosexual marriages, or unions, that promiscuity outside of that marriage is more common than within heterosexual marriages and therefore shows heterosexual marriages to be more sound and long lasting.”

          Sorry I will need citations, there are many Christan funded “research” group which are paid to find the desired answer of the funders not the truth. Atudy are homosexuality particularly ones over 15-20 years old are hideously biased, and poorly run, but even knew research don’t my those for mentioned unscrupulous groups are just as bad in not worse.

          “Also, the medical risks that are associated with homosexual relationships regarding sexually transmitted diseases are insane.”

          Ummm no you saying that is insain, the risks are slightly higher, but there a higher rate f unprotected sex in some heterosexual communities, and there was the Aids scare back in the 80, and yes the gay community was hit hard, but they where not the only ones. I suspect many of your sources are biased, and/or old.

          As to sexual morality, Christ and his bride/brides, lets not forget the the bible is cool with multiple wives.

          “God knows what is best for us. He designed us and our sexuality; His thoughts are greater than ours.”

          I honestly can’t believe this. If this where true he would have seen this coming in given clear instructions on how to deal with it, he definitely did not. You can say “His thoughts are greater than ours.” all you like, but if it does make sense, then how could you expect a sensible person the believe it?

          The simple fact is that modern science disagrees strongly that heterosexually is unusual, or a problem. If fat there many plausible hypothesis for why it would have evolved in our distant ancestors (probably long before they where apes)

          Withteeth

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          • eb571573

            I am will aware of the homosexual practices of animals. I do not know why they behave this way, but don’t really see a reason to fret about it considering there is a division between animals and humans (atleast from a Biblical Christian perspective). I apologize for my use of the word “insane.” It was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. My point was that homosexuals, according to several studies, run higher risks for sexually transmitted diseases. Again, not a huge concern to me regarding my convictions. Regarding the Bible; yes, the Bible actually does contradict the thought of multiple wives. I could present to you a rather lengthy amount of evidence on that if you like. This is not the first time that you and your friend have said something outlandish regarding what you think the Bible says compared to what Christians, not to mention those that have devoted their lives to studying the Bible and what it actually says, believe. In conclusion; I will admit, you and your friend are much more intelligent than I when it comes to scientific research. However, your knowledge regarding the Bible is very flawed. You have been misdirected by something or someone, and for that I’m sorry. I would invite you look into some teachers of the Bible such as: John MacArthur, Al Mohler, John Piper, David Platt, or my favorite, Charles Spurgeon.

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          • hessianwithteeth

            Well I will not argue that my knowledge of the bible is flawed I can’t be borther too read all, Although hessian has read most of it. I imagine you could find something in the bible that you can have multiple wives, but it also say you can. I include the old testament as the bible because while Jesus is said to have brought the new covenant, it’s also in there that he is not doing away with the old laws.

            This is the problem with the bible,it’s a game of Cherry picking, and trying to apply the morals of a nomadic middle eastern tribe which is now extinct (yes there are the modern Jews, but they are certainly not the same culture or even religions the Israelites)

            It seems to me that there is far more biblical precedence for the acceptance of slavery then anything about homosexual men (and nothing about homosexual women)

            Why not focus on the love your neighbors bit and stop worrying about what consenting adults do with there bodies?

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          • eb571573

            That’s curious, because I find that unbelievers cherry pick through the Bible to fit their own agendas, where as a true believer in Christ who believes the Bible simply reads the word, studies the word, and accepts the word as it is (Old Testament and New Testament). Do you know why I entered into commenting on this blog post? Because Biblical text was being falsely presented and Christians were being accused of being ignorant of what their religious doctrine actually says. “Why not focus on the love your neighbors bit…?” If I didn’t love my neighbor, I wouldn’t even bother to share what the gospel actually says about Christ being a savior and how we are all lost in sin without Him. I wouldn’t bother to correct those who need correction in what the Bible actually says about specific subjects. Quite the contrary! If I were silent on such subjects, you can be certain that it would mean that I didn’t give two hoots about you or anyone else for that matter. Yet, I do care. I care because Christ had mercy on me. Christ loved all that He came in contact with, yet He was not afraid to correct those that needed correction.

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          • hessianwithteeth

            Well do yo wear mixed fabric, eat pork, eat shell fish? By what method do you choose which laws to listen too? Non-Christans tend to do less cherry picking as much as they ted to point out the worst bits. That is a type of cherry picking, but they’re in there, and many things are projected as moral with in those books, allegedly done by God himself which are the opposite, such as sicking bears on boys making fun an old man. You can claim metaphor or what have you, but methodology has always seem ah hoc at best. And perhaps ultimately it’s biblical literalism who have ruined everything, but the bible just is not all that convincing for a work supposedly guided and approved by some divine entity who knows best.

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          • eb571573

            Once again, the Bible is very clear that moral laws of the Old Testament never faded away, but the traditional laws of the Old Testament are no longer necessary. If you dig deeper, you will find that the forbidding of eating and drinking certain things were for the sake of setting Israel apart from the rest of the world.
            There are indeed several confusing things in the Old Testament regarding the character of God, but God is still just in what He does. We as humans can never comprehend that.

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  • cherrypi314

    A wonderfully clear and concise arguement, unfortunately I doubt that many people who believe that homosexuality is a sin will be persuaded by well reasoned argument! -CherryPi

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  • Statik Magg

    Reblogged this on Statik Magg and commented:
    I have yet to view this in full but I’d LOVE some feedback …

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  • Nicola

    I’m not familiar with this blogger, but the original post seems like a rehash of all the standard anti-LGBT claims. Thank you for this brilliant rebuttal.

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  • Your Religion Isn't An Excuse For Hate | Christians Anonymous

    […] Source: Your Religion Isn’t An Excuse For Hate […]

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  • Caroline

    The objectionable thing here is that “love the sinner, hate the sin” assumes that we compartmentalise these things – I’m transgender, have been for as long as I remember, and am just starting to embrace it properly. But it does define me – not completely, but my transgenderism is a big part of my life. It’s not a disease, like the flu, or pneumonia. It’s me. Take that away and what’s left isn’t me. So, yes, when you say you hate my “sin”, you’re hating me. Just saying that you don’t doesn’t change that.

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    • hessianwithteeth

      It’s something that people don’t seem to get. People say “it’s like hating any other sin. Don’t you hate it when people steal from you?” It makes me want to scream. Theft is an action. A person can choose not to steal. An LGBTQ person can’t just choose to change who they are. But many people don’t get it because they think it’s a choice to be LGBTQ.

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  • Arkenaten

    Yes, there is a rather unfortunate irony that the religious so often tend to be the ones who bandy the word around – especially in their ridiculous emotion-fueled charge that atheists are all ”God- haters”.
    As if an atheist would hate something that isn’t real? Very silly.

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  • sirgb

    Great posts from you.

    Like

  • JC

    “As long as you hate, there will be people to hate”

    Like

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